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evan czaplicki noredink

December 22, 2020 0 Comments

This work was an extension of his senior thesis at Harvard University to make client-side web programming a good experience. You check that those functions are correct, any use of any combinations of those function will work out. We spend almost all of our front-end coding time writing Elm. That’s the academic side of things. That’s when you’re like… With fresh eyes, it’s so ridiculous. It’s like, teach somebody the box model; you think they get it, but still… Even then, you’re like, “That’s the box model? I don’t know enough about particulars, but hopefully that gives an idea. So on the walk back to the office we were just chatting, and I was like, “I bet I can hide all of that with a library before you can get back to work.” So I walked upstairs and did it, and he walked back to his office, and I had it out there. And then you have this other thing, which is just a misconception. What’s happening at ElmConf? We find that it’s both interesting and inspiring to hear where people who are doing cool stuff in open source have come from. When 0.17 came out… I don’t know if maybe Richard can give a better estimate, but the actual code that would have been invalidated or not work anymore is 5% of code. The root there isn’t like, “Oh, I want to make a thing”, it was, “I specifically want to vertically center this picture.” That desire got out of control. I was like, “Oh my gosh, the whole world’s going to be different.”. It’s still quite an immature API, but it’s the building blocks of what every Elm program is built on behind-the-scenes. There’s also the library Choo which is just an overt port. We’ve got Evan Czaplicki and Richard Feldman we’re going to introduce here in just a second, but his is a catch-up show. Yeah… I’m just trying to ponder why it feels like what you’re “supposed to do” is wait for a big rewrite, and the answer to that is that it’s just a different language. There’s been a lot of support for languages in Elm’s age group. There are concepts and terms that exist, and the fact that I don’t get them yet makes me doubt what I already know. NoRedInk. There might be blocks, but there’s nothing that’s even close to what signals were like in terms of learning curve. If you’re listening, go there. That was the initial vision. What we noticed is people were setting up the same programs, right? [00:31:49.03] Signals are gone and you don’t have to worry about it anymore, but actually subscriptions are… This is my take on it, but basically there were things where before you needed to use signals, but now you don’t need to use anything; they’re just a first-class thing. I guess, to answer your questions more directly, when working on a particular problem like this, I’m not picky about what I look into. I remember we wanted to put the logo in the middle of a box, both vertically and horizontally in the middle, and at some point we just were like, “Nah, maybe we don’t want to do that.” [laughs]. Email Adam at adam@changelog.com for a personal introduction to Toptal. I’m very interested in seeing how far we can go with that in that direction. I noticed that my programs always were written a certain way. When you have C++ becoming popular, it’s totally backwards compatible, so you’ll have these large codebases that are part one, part the other. How long was it between “I vertically want to center this picture” and you dove deep into this creation of a language, and an architecture? What does modularity look like then in Elm and in a functional-type language? If someone says, “Hey, I saw this thing in Elm. This is the ideal…?” I don’t know. View Paige Pollara's business profile as Manager, Customer Success at NoRedInk Corp. Find contact's direct phone number, email address, work history, and more. Oh, man… I’m so excited about the schedule. Welcome back everyone, this is the Changelog and I am your host, Adam Stacoviak. It’s not really a huge change, and I think I’m pretty deliberate about “How can I prove things and make an important change without disrupting everyone’s stuff?”. It’s just a big bunch of data, like a large database. One of the first bigger programs that I wrote was actually a presentation about Elm in Elm. But the thing is Elm interoperates with JavaScript and it’s totally fine, and in fact, it’s totally great to have Elm side by side with JavaScript. A lot of the sneaky problems you’d have are often, “I have this thing over here, it touches this variable; that variable is touched by four other things. Whose ideas might you steal and bring back to Elm? We actually got asked recently, “Another Elm show, so quickly?” What’s going on here? Yeah. “Ah, ah, ah! I think what I would take from Richard’s scenario is when you have a language that’s really easy to test, and catches errors for you with the compiler as aggressively, you can have really big chunks of data, and it works pretty well. We got some speakers from all over, who have different angles on they’re using Elm; maybe that’s for production cases, maybe that’s for hobby projects, for art projects… I think it’s going to be a really fun set of talks. And then we look at adoption; there’s a lot of different hurdles that you guys have to overcome to move people from interested, and, “It’s mysterious, and I would like to try it, but I’m not really sure how” and, Richard’s full-in… Like, “NoRedInk is full in on Elm, 37,000 lines of production code.”. When I got into language stuff, it was with an eye towards, “What cool thing can I make for people?” To tie this in a little bit mo, I had this experience at a place I was interning. We just observed over time, “Oh, this is how it works,” and then just share that as we learn. Evan Czaplicki. You have a team - they all have different backgrounds, they all have different perspectives on what it means to write good code, what is fun, what their role is on that team, what their expertise… What it means for everyone else. In addition to that, we’re also seeing people imitate Elm’s famously good error message, saying “Man, we can do some of that stuff over here. That’s something that I should’ve had been worrying about. How do I talk to the APIs? The language was first developed by Evan Czaplicki in 2012. So you know the console in the JavaScript developer tools, how you can open up arrays and see all of the things - I’m working on a version of that for Elm values, and that’s something where the Expando logic is in a module. Tons of message components, like React components, following best practices to the best of our ability…. Essentially, you can never sneak into that module and mess with things. So I think there’s this idea—I’m not sure where it comes from, maybe Richard will know better — but that it’s all Elm or no Elm. I think signals was the last real stumbling block. Empower Your Business Applications with Industry-Leading Relationship Data from the RelSci API. [00:27:39.20] When 0.17 happened, we did take out a… Essentially, we took out an API that was no longer was in use, and it felt very essential, but in reality, the underlying ideas behind Elm stayed the same, and the code that people were writing stayed the same. You’re doing something wrong.” No, no, no… Distributing state just makes stuff harder to maintain. A lot of languages take this route, and I guess you have the micro-architecture theories of how to gradually introduce languages gradually in the backend, but I just don’t know a story of totally replacing with a language. I think I would agree. If you’re listening, and maybe you just came for the Elm, stop right now and hit the subscribe button, because we’ve got some good stuff coming down the pipeline. It’s easy to think of that as being opinionated, but in Elm it’s just the way things come out. At some point we realized, “This actually can cover everything that people need, just flat-out.” It is generating this signal graph underneath, but messing with that isn’t actually essential complexity. Worst-case scenario you’ll be like, “Eh. Fundamentally, elm-package is about sharing high-quality code. It’s like, “Hey, we’re talking Elm architecture and bringing it to JavaScript.”. Before we had nice error messages, there was a time it was bad, not even okay. So we know if there’s a breaking change or minor change in your API. I don’t like it.” [laughs] But I think a lot of times folks end up learning stuff; even if they don’t end up using it ultimately, that it’s is helpful in whatever they go back to. This is the first ElmConf, right? Explore notable alumni from top universities and organizations. I’d say this is similar to how we learn a lot of things in Elm. That’s a big question. To prove the point, Evan Czaplicki, A.B. He has spent the last few years improving the language and supporting folks who use it. So, the most recent feature I shipped at work was a really big complicated… so, I work at an education company called NoRedInk. I think in Elm up for every page, I believe that certainly was the case, whether that's [inaudible], I don't know. Evan loves garden path sentences (like “The horse raced past the barn fell.”) and wishes they came up more often. I can definitely relate, and being a longtime web developer, you learn to just work around the craziness and the hard stuff, because that’s how you get your job done, or that’s how you accomplish your goals. It’s better than my Java code partly because I’m a bunch of years older, and way more experienced, but also because I made a language. It’s the wrong way to go about doing things. It’s NoRedInk, my bad. I think Richard’s got an alarm set or something like that. He is an open source engineer at NoRedInk, where the front-end code includes more than 200k lines of Elm. It’s a question of risk. It’s pretty hard to do that with styles. We spend almost all of our front-end coding time writing Elm. I was writing C++, writing callbacks in C++, wondering why you would write callbacks in C++. [laughter] There are times when I would get frustrated about this kind of thing. If you Command+F for ‘component’, you bring up the Elm guide and do the same thing, you get zero hits. That’s what I thought with Elm, and you guys completely changed that – or not changed it, but changed the misconception in my mind, with your recent post about sprinkling it in and just like, “You don’t have to go all-in, you can incrementally sprinkle Elm into your web applications.” That’s a revelation - for me, at least - in terms of like, “Oh, I can give this a try in small ways, and see if I like it, or if it makes sense. I’d say that’s where a lot of the tough problem is when you’re thinking of using a new technology. So no matter what your program was, people were setting up the same network signals - that’s what we called them; other people called them observables. September 15th. So I’d take these inputs, I’d merge them all together, I update my model, I send it out to My View. [laughs] By telling you about problems early on, and telling you about them in a friendly way. Strange Loop’s a conference that’s really open to new approaches or different perspectives, and has been I think, really supportive of these communities. [01:12:26.25] The big realization wasn’t, “We have to do it a totally different way.” It was “If you put in engineering time, you can make really big improvements, and get very specific error messages.” I think it’s just part of my writing style, that I like it to be fun and friendly. 5 Pennsylvania Plaza 15th Floor Native bindings in healthy package ecosystems. Two is worse than one, but like, whatever. But specifically, to be very explicit about this, every single Rollbar error we’ve seen in the past, ever since we’ve introduced Elm, the fix has always been in 100% of the cases not changing any Elm code. I’ve just had a really pleasant, delightful experience around it. This is us our assignment form”, and it’s incredibly complicated. Some other questions we have towards the end here is… It’s not really a FAQ, it’s more like disbelief. It’s rockin’. That’s actually going to be much, much worse. Evan Czaplicki, creator of Elm, and Richard Feldman of NoRedInk joined the show to talk deeper about Elm, the pains of CSS it solves, scaling the Elm architecture, reusable components, and more. Where you can actually read it in line with you writing it? He holds an AB in Computer Science from Harvard. Evan created Elm, a functional language for web programming. You mentioned earlier our package ecosystem; every package that’s published, we have a semantic versioning automatically enforced based on API. We’re talking around them, but can you lay it all out there for us? One thing that’s been great for Elm is to have the JavaScript ecosystem start to edge towards ideas that show up in Elm. I think there’s often a pressure to try to draw those lines when they don’t necessarily exist. The answer is never “Elm did something that we didn’t expect to the degree that it crashed.” It’s just that good at finding stuff. The question then becomes, “How do you organize that?” Like Evan said, the idea in Elm is that the cheapest way to make things modular is with functions. Alright, we are talking about Elm and one way that they are making it easier to adopt - or maybe it’s always been easy to adopt, we just didn’t realize this before. I think over the next couple of years, we’ll be fleshing that out more and more. Very cool. I’m still learning how to communicate that effectively. We’re talking about Elm, and I want to talk about that in-depth with regard to sprinkling it in, because that’s a new revelation to me as somebody who’s interested in Elm, but not quite ready to dive into the pool, so to speak. It means dramatically different things to different people. Statistics-wise, at work, what we’re using now - we did introduce it gradually; we can talk about that in a bit. Anything to add to that, Richard? Getting to mastery is almost unattainable. Yeah, so if you think of alternatives, they all fall within the scope of the Elm architecture, which is broadly defined to cover things that work in Elm. NoRedInk has the largest commercial Elm codebase in the world, and has hired Elm creator Evan Czaplicki to develop the language full-time. I know that you guys had a popular post just recently this summer about how you could do that, and ways you can get started on that. Do you guys see any other - I don’t want to call them “big changes” in regards to the way things work, but low-hanging fruit or aspects of Elm that are perhaps confusing now that you can find similar wins, like you did with signals? In 2013, Evan joined a Hungarian-based software company called Prezi. We use Elm a lot at NoRedInk; we love it. One of the goals that’s stated in a recent blog post from you, Evan, it says, “One of Elm’s goals is to change our relationship with compilers. It’s a mistake to credit me with this; the ability to find this class of errors this way and rule them out entirely; it goes back to the ‘70s. One thing that’s been interesting as I’ve been working on Elm is coming back to the same thing, except many years later. Then of a sudden you’re like, “Holy crap, there’s tons of companies using this language!” I’ve heard this story for other languages, where all of a sudden they’re just like, “Oh, what?”. And my alternate phrasing of that is that before, you would to use signals for that, and signals in some way were tough to weave into the basic Elm architecture that everyone wanted to write. Guys, thanks so much for joining us, and taking time to talk about Elm today. [00:04:04.10] Bertrand Le Roy talking about .NET Core, and a whole bunch more. Richard is not at all saying, “Don’t care about code quality.” It’s just that doing something nice looks quite different in these languages. I wouldn’t frame it exactly like Richard’s database thing, but I would say when you have 20 components with their own individual state, you end up in a situation where you’re synchronizing state between all these different things. If you trace the roots of the term to the academic literature, it means a very particular thing. That kind of came about by accident, that we have these really nice error messages. You say numbers like that and someone’s like, “Obviously, you need to split that up. This has actually been very dramatic for me, because I’ve been teaching these workshops in preparation for… I’m doing a two-day frontend master’s course in September, and I’ve been doing these weekend workshops to prepare for it. I don’t know, I haven’t counted, but it’s a lot. How do you upgrade a large codebase? It’s unclear where that will go, but that’s some thoughts. At this point JavaScript is pretty much just legacy; if we want to use a third-party library, NPM is obviously a lot bigger than Elm package system, but other than that, we don’t really reach for JavaScript at all anymore. The term came to mean “we have interactivity and we have a map function.” Basically, it’s functional and it’s reactive, so we’re going to use this terminology. Knowing how their code turned out, it makes sense to me that it turned out well, but I think of modularity in a functional language in terms of… Instead of reusing state, we’re reusing functions. Alright, we’re back. I guess Evan’s probably the best at talking about what Elm is, since he made the whole thing. 9:00 AM Keynote by Evan Czaplicki - Creator of Elm. Discover more about NoRedInk Charles Comstock Work Experience and Education It is popular among web developers who like it for building user interfaces. In Elm, by starting out with the foundation of all those that are immutable, the architecture falls out of that. Yeah, like you said, I think Richard set a reminder. For a couple days, I thought I invented this. I wish I could take credit for having that good of a memory, but… Yeah, I set a reminder. NoRedInk has the largest commercial Elm codebase in the world, and has hired Elm creator Evan Czaplicki to develop the language full-time. He currently works at NoRedInk as an Open Source Engineer. Yeah, that’s a good point to frame it that way, because that’s what lead us to do it this way, the incremental approach. Get Contact Information on the World's Most Influential Decision Makers. All I had to do was make a programming language.” [laughter], That’s been one of the fun… One of the early examples with Elm was if you walk around as an RPG-type character - and I actually used art from a project I did in high school - it’s the same look, it’s just you know… Just write a compiler, and it’s way shorter to write a program. Someone recently asked, “I want to have a user that’s logged in or not. I don’t have to necessarily dive all the way into the pool.”. Yeah, so I’m pretty excited to meet everyone. That’s how it works?” And all the browser course that goes with it, all the things you have to do to hack around it… You’re right, Jerod - teaching someone brand new CSS is like, “Good luck.” You really have to want to learn it. Today we wrote in Elm and we’ve had to maintain it a lot since then… Now it’s not scary; we’re just not afraid of it anymore. NoRedInk Corp. Stay informed and up-to-date on your network with RelSci news and business alerting service. Basically, the way that we know that is because we use Rollbar to track runtime exceptions in general, because our JavaScript code still throws them all the time. My error messages come to me earlier; the compiler finds errors before they can reach my end users, which I really appreciate, because I’m somebody who cares about user experience, and I don’t want errors getting to my users. There’s a disagreement within the academic literature about what the scope of that term should be. Immersing yourself in this set of tools that help you think in a different way is going to help you grow as a programmer. Evan recently wrote a post back in July called “How to Use Elm at Work.” And the key of that post — tons of detail, we’ll link it up to the show notes, but you can gradually introduce Elm into your production applications at work. Their intent is admirable: find sneaky bugs, help fix them, and generate fast code. 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